Colour change in an Anatolian Kurd prayer rug

At the bottom of the rug there is a nice moss green in some places. In the hooked border framing the field, this green gets soon replaced by a colour that might have been similar to the stable green but has over time turned into a not unpleasant grey-mauve, more reddish than greenish in tone (see first two images). On the back of the rug the colour change is also there, but less pronounced — it looks more like a green-brown (see third image). The colours front and back are close (no discernable tip fading when peeking into the pile) but there is a difference nevertheless.

I have scoured Brüggemann & Böhmer's book on Carpets of peasants and nomads in Anatolia to get a good hypothesis of what colour the green could be. My main question is whether we have an intentional colour change even at the time when the rug was woven (because the weaver ran out of green) or whether the good green was replaced by another unstable green dye. I had thought (and perhaps you agree) that this rug would be too old for the occurence of a synthetic green (especially in east Anatolia) but I may be wrong. If the green is not synthetic (if it ever was a green), what natural dye might have turned into the colour you see in the images? I read that indigo sulforic acid (blue) has been used for greens which may fade somewhat, plus one of the yellow dye plants yielding quercetin or apigenin. The yellow component could also fade but that should render the green more blueish, not reddish as in this case. Have you got any hypothesis?

And now, for the context, a full view (photo not made by me but by the Cloudband dealer where I bought this rug). You can see that it has been used a lot for praying (wear where the knees and feet would go).

On Turkotek, there was a discussion about it (from 18 November 2005 into December) which has since then been removed—now (Oct 2006) that I have received the zipped thread from Filiberto Boncompagni, I first thought of just listing the main points and opinions but it turned out to be easier to just reproduce it here (since it has been in the public domain on the Turkotek board, I hope that none of the contributors would object to having the discussion documented here).

• Cevat Kanig: Nice rug!, your rug appears to me mid 19th. Century Konya/Karapinar rug.
• Patrick Weiler: It does not appear that there is fading in your rug. The change from green to mauve is distinct and abrupt. The green does not re-appear at any time in the rug. The weaver either intentionally, or due to a lack of green wool, has decided to use a different color. I prefer the green to the mauve, but that is a personal preference. The weaver may have decided that mauve was nicer than green. Indigo-sulfonic is not a likely explanation, as it is more commonly a blue color than either green or mauve. If the yellow had faded, the green would appear as more blue. To me, it seems that the colors of your rug are quite similar to those that were used when the rug was originally made.
• Detlev Fischer: Thanks Cevat and Patrick! The question remains what kind of colour this is, if not a faded originally stronger colour. It does not look like a madder based aubergine, it does not look like a walnut brown or like the fleece brown of some sheep. I seem to remember grey is not really part of the traditional kurdish palette. I still feel this might have been green once, but has turned grey because the dye proved unstable. And there is a faint greenish cast discernable on the back side.
• Horst Nitz: Hello, The light moss-green and the adjacent grey mare share the dye but not the wool. Light green requires white wool of which the dyer or weaver seems to have run out. The adjacent grey wool has never been dyed green, or if tried, didn't take on the colour as well as the white wool. Same result, if tried to dye it lightly with madder = purple shine (if not monitor related). A fine rug, glorious in its decay.
• Sue Zimmermann: Hi Detlev, I am sorry to be too pressed for time to elaborate on how the Green/Grey/Mauve yarn came to be as they now are on your rug. It is a complicated matter involving the nature of the dyestuff, mordanting, and washing--all. The answer to your main question is Alkanet. If you want to do your own research much is available on the subject on the web. Look up Alkanna Tinctoria, Anchusa Tinctoria, Anchusic Acid + Benzene, etc., and go on from there. Easy. Notice that, from the back, it can be seen that these knot's yarn is spun differently than the rest of the knots. Notice that the wefts between them are covered by the knots unlike the other knots in the rug. Notice that they show far more abrasion than the other knots and that their "tying on" style is unlike those which are found elsewhere. It is possible they are replacement restoration knots.
• Tim Adam: Sue, I agree that reknotting may be the answer, but are you saying the green knots are the ones that may have been replaced? I find it more likey that the green stuff is originial, and that the grey/mauve pile, as well as some of the red, has been reknotted. Notice the fading in some of the red areas? Furthermore, the green pile is in worse condition than the rest, so likely older. I see what you are saying about the wefts. But the wefts can be seen also in some of the red areas that could be original, and in the blue (but it's much harder to see them there due to the low contrast). Tim
• Detlev Fischer: Hello Sue, I am not sure how looking up Alkanna Tinctoria, Anchusa Tinctoria, Anchusic Acid + Benzene, etc. is going to help here - at least I don't find it easy. It seems Alkanna yields a red dye used for staining wood, marble and colouring port wine. It does not appear in the quite extensive index of dye plants used in Anatolia included in the Brueggemann and Boehmer book. Are you suggesting that the hooked border may have been grey wool dyed red using Alkanna or similar (red on red would make a strange choice, after starting in green) and has since faded?
  
  Mind you, this is not terribly important, I love the rug as it is - I am just curious whether anyone can identify this dye from having seen and handled similar rugs.
  
  Horst indicates that there may be reddish grey sheep wool that may have been over-dyed green and later turned into the curent mauve-like colour due to fading for the dye - with fading of the front more pronounced than that of the back.
  
  Rearding Sue's suggestion that the mauve is a replacement repliling with another dye, I checked the rug again and found various areas areas with the more fuzzy hairy felted look on the back look, also dark brown, light blue etc. The pile looks exactly the same, long shiny fibres. The colour in the entrire hooked frame is the same and I doubt all that was repiled at any time - I just think it is unlikely. Thanks for all your replies so far! Detlev
• Horst Nitz: Hello Detlev, my line of thinking is a slightly different one: the light green is a stable natural dye on a light shade of wool, probably white. Of this the weaver has run out, indicated by the absence of it further up in the rug. She has continued with grey wool that someone may have tried to dye; but either it did not take on the dye very well or the dye faded because it was not a natural dye anymore. Regards, Horst
• Michael Wendorf: Dear Mr Fischer, Dear Mr. Fischer: In my opinion this is an East Anatolian rug. The colours and colour combinations seem consistent with this.
  
  Your reliance on Bruggemann and Bohmer is well placed. To my eyes, the grey/mauve color appears from the front to be a madder derived color with impurities. On the back it reminds me more of a color I have seen occasionally in Eastern Anatolian Kurdish pieces that seem to be utilitarian, mostly simple flatweaves. Two variations of this colour are known to me and I cannot discern which is more likely from the images provided. One of these is made by combining a ply of undyed brown shades of wool with natural color variation and a lighter almost ivory ply of wool. The second is a colour that I have had tested once and came from walnut and other trace elements, this is usually found on simple weavings with ivory warps. If you wish to know the dye source beyond these three possibilities you will need to have a wool sample tested but you could start by examing a small sample by hand and seeing if it the combined type.
  
  The felting on the back is fairly common on old rugs of this type. I think the weaver intended to emphasize this border area of the rug and the transition into the field and the design elements there and do so with subtle changes of the ground colour.
  
  A final observation, the rug's presence would benefit greatly from removal of the overcast and professional conservation.
  
  Thank you to the reader who brought this thread to my attention. Best wishes, Michael
• Cevat Kanig: Hi to All, I would like to express that i do not agree with Micheal on this rug , because the rug is not east Anatolian rug, rug weaving areas in East Anatolia Kars, Kagizman, Savak, Adiyaman, Malatya and towns Hakkari, Kahramanmaras, Cankiri, GaziAntep and all this areas are Kurdish weavers, some in Sivas too, Erzurum and Bayburt are.
  
  The rug that Detlev brought our attention doesn't match any of the weaving areas, colour neither! What it macthes is Konya/Karaman area with the colors and the weaving too.
  
  Below rug image is from Akrep Rug socaites which is very similar colour combination with Detlev's rug, Specially Dark madder Red is common Karaman red, not Kurdish or East Anatolian.
  
  Detlev's rug:
  
• Detlev Fischer: Thanks first of all for the continuing lively discussion. In response to Michael Wendorf's suggestion I can say with certainty that the grey-mauve is not
  • quote: a ply of undyed brown shades of wool with natural color variation and a lighter almost ivory ply of wool.
  Regarding the suggestion to remove the stiched overcast and get the rug professionally conserved, I am not sure what I would want to be done. I wouldn't want the piece mounted on fabric because I like to handle it. In a sense I like the roughness of the overcast which does not attempt to 'blend in' and has the aesthetics of a medical tape.
  
  It was interesting to see that there is disagreement on the provenance. I am in no posistion to settle this, of course, but checking again the Brueggemann & Boehmer book (p113, German edition) 90% of central Anatolian rugs have yellow (this one hasn't, but Cevat's rug has) while only few have brown (this one has a beautiful uncorroded dark mahogany brown as the border background colour). They also say 75 % of central Anatolian rugs have violet (not sure whether the German "violett" should rather be translated into 'lilac' or 'purple') - this one has no violet.
  
  On the other hand, the nice apricot (assuming it is madder-based) may be unusual for east-Anatolian? Brueggemann & Boehmer (table 3, p112) have 0% bright red for east Anatolian rugs (not sure though whether 'apricot' maps onto 'bright-red' - at least in the entries for yellow the madder dye components do not appear). Detlev
• Detlev Fischer: Just to qualify the last post: either something is wrong with the Brueggemann & Boehmer colour table (table 3, p112) or I misinterpreted it. On browsing the catalogue in the book, I found a number of east Anatolian rugs with apricot (light orange-red) based on madder only, e.g., the ground in no. 93 or the ground in the central compartment in no. 98.
  
  Of course I cannot be sure that the apricot has been dyed just with madder. A combination of madder and a yellow dyeplant is not infrequent in eastern Anatolian rugs (45% in table 4).
• Cevat Kanig: Hi Detlev, Your rug has some green in it, it mean they used yellow to dye that kind of green, to dye appricot you can not mix red and yellow if you do so you will find Orange, appricot is matter, Most Karaman rugs have less yellow and less green on them, some times no yellow.
  
  Karaman sheep are very special, they have also proverb about Karaman sheep. Karaman wools are soft wools and has undyed Purpel and Redish Brown and White, your rug's warps appear to me purple Karaman wool, the green probably dyed by purple Karaman wool. Here are Karaman Sheeps:
  
  Purple Karaman Sheep
  
  Redish Brown Karaman Sheep
  
  White Karaman Sheep
  
  
• Vincent Keers: Dear Cevat, Be aware! I was once declared braindead by some internet maniac because I wrote about greenish wool on Turkotek. Purple sheep are even better! Thanks for joining the multicultural sheep society. Best regards, Vincent
• Cevat Kanig: Hi Vincent, There are also songs about Purple sheeps, it is a folk song from Konya area, i am not kidding ,you can search about it. Thanks for excepting me multicultural sheep society, i would like to remind you that you are the only human been in this planet have a CAVE. Regards.
• Horst Nitz: Hello Cevat, I also like those sheep, pretty beasts, lovely chestnut brown. I believe, some ladies would go a long way for it. Regards, Horst
• Cevat Kanig: Hi Horst, This Purple sheep doesn't have horns, i think it is female. Regards.
• Detlev Fischer: Cevat, thanks for the nice photos of brown/purple sheep. The warps are a mix of dark brown, light brown and white wool. I am ready to admit that there will be Karaman rugs using no yellow and using brown. The simple stepped lozenges in the border, the tree with angular hooked branches, and the many scattered filler motifs in the field struck me as east Anatolian but I may well be wrong and all these traits may equally well apply to Karaman rugs.
  
  I am just curious whether you have convinced Michael Wendorf who has so far kept stum after his initial post in which he attributed this rug to eastern Anatolia?
• Cevat Kanig: Hi Detlev, Let me repeat it again, in east Anatolia and South East Anatolia and other kurdish weaving areas are:
  1. Cihanbeyli Kurds/ Konya
  2. Cankiri Kurds
  3. Sivas Kurds
  4. Kahraman Maras Kurds
  5. Gazi Antep Kurds
  6. Adiyaman Kurds.
  7. Malatya and areas Kurds
  8. Savak Kurds/Elazig
  9. Kars and Kagizman Kurds
  10. Dogubeyazit Kurts/Agri
  11. Hakkari Kurts
  12. Savsat Kurts/ Artvin
  13. Van Kurds
  14. Bayburt
  15. Erzurum
  These are the All Kurdish and East Anatolian rugs and kilims weaving Centres as far as i know, your rug does not match any of this weaving areas, If Michael had some thing to say about it i am sure he would say it. Regards.
• Michael Wendorf: Dear Mr. Fischer: No, Mr. Kanig has not convinced me that your rug is either mid 19th century Konya/Karapinar or Konya/Karaman. As you may recall, Mr. Kanig initially was emphatic that your rug was "mid 19th century Konya Karapinar" then this evolved to an equally emphatic "Konya/Karaman" then "Karaman" attribution. The Karaman attribition is based on an assumption that the warps on your rug are purple and the wool soft. Even if it were accurate to state that Karaman rugs have purple warps ( this is inaccurate in my experience), your rug has variagated dark, light and ivory wool warps. The soft wool he mentions is a characteristic of so-called Karaman rugs, but it often results in exactly the kind of furry surface with less well articulated designs than found on your rug and more like those on the Karaman rug that he pasted in from another forum. Your rug does not have this characteristic.
  
  It is difficult make a precise attribution for rugs such as yours even if you have the rug in hand and can examine the handle, the wool and the colours. Based on the images, the weave, colours and colour combinations I think I am seeing and the information you have provided, I continue to think this rug is most likely to have its origin in eastern Anatolia and possibly quite far in the east. However, the real question you had concerned the dye and colour change. On this I offered 3 possible alternatives. One of these seems to be ruled out. There might be others. If you want something other than opinion or speculation, you have to have the colours tested and the results of such test might also help you to attribute the origin of the rug. For the record, undyed wools from Anatolian sheep come in an wide spectrum of colors from ivory to nearly black with many brown and even tawny shades. This applies to sheep in the Kurdish homeland as well as other areas.
  
  Thank you for your interest. michael
• Cevat Kanig: Hi Detlev, Michael says your rug is Eastern Anatolian rug and Kurdish rug wich is not true according my knowladge i would be glad to hear from Michael wich Eastern city in Anatolia and wich Kurdish City, i am from Turkey and mostly know all Kurdish rugs and areas in Turkey.
  
  Michael is a Kurdish rug Collector, he should show us some evidences will back up his idea, so far he did not show any evidence , i think he doesn't have any one , if he had one, i am sure he would show it to us.
  
  Above, as i mentioned Eastern Anatolian and Kurdish Rug weaving areas, i do not know any of this Kurdish rug that match the rug you have. what it matches is KARAMAN.
  
  In early 80's, i use to deal with Turkish rugs alot and it was comon that people confuse between Karaman and Karapinar rugs in word, i don't see any big deal on this. Kurdish wools are in Eastern Anatolia not softer like Konya wool.
  
  Here is a Ayranci rug wich is very close to Karaman, actualy Karaman is a City know, Ayranci is a providence of Karaman They have very similar Colours and wool, wich is very similar colour combination with your rug.
  
  I think Michael should show us some evidence to support his Theory.
  
  Image From Ners {New England Rug Sociate} 19th C. Ayranci/Karaman
  
• Steve Price: Hi All, Before this goes much further in the direction it seems to be heading, I'd like to add my moderator's take on it.
  1. I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion about the attribution.
  2. Michael has a lot of experience with Kurdish rugs, which gives his opinion a certain amount of credibility. The epistemology behind it would be interesting and, since there is some difference of opinion, useful as well.
  3. Cevat has a lot of experience with Turkish rugs, which gives his opinion a certain amount of credibility. The epistemology behind it would be interesting and, since there is some difference of opinion, useful as well.
  4. Arguments don't become more persuasive through repetition, and increasing the volume with which they are presented doesn't add to their credibility.
  Regards, Steve Price
• Michael Wendorf: Dear Mr. Kanig: I respectfully decline your invitation to provide evidence of a theory you imagine I have proposed. I am of the opinion that Mr. Fischer's rug is East Anatolian. As I wrote previously, precise attribution of such rugs is difficult. Nonetheless, I believe there is sufficient information to make this general attribution. It is as simple as this. My opinion is based on my experience with old rugs from this area including close observation of colours and colour combinations as well as materials, foundations and finishes. You can do with my opinion as you wish. It is further my opinion that nothing you have written and none of the images you have pasted in establish any link between Mr. Fischer's rug and your opinion that the rug is from Karaman. Again, my opinion.
  
  As a further point of clarification, I never wrote or opined that the rug is Kurdish and this was never discussed. Frankly, whether the rug (a rug I have not personally examined) is East Anatolian or something else, Kurdish or something else, based on the information and images provided can be determined by anyone who cares to consider this issue without further evidence from me. In any event, such discussion does nothing to answer Mr. Fischer's question about dyes.
  
  Best wishes, michael
• Cevat Kanig: Hi Michael, As i mention it before, rug weaving areas in Eastern Anatolia wich mostly Kurdish people had woven rugs in that area, actualy, Erzurum and Bayburt except in that area they are all Kurdish rugs.
  
  I mention 15 diffrent citys in Eastern Anatolia wich they are rug weaving areas and you said that the rug is Eastern Anatolian Rug and add that "On the back it reminds you more of a color you have seen occasionally in Eastern Anatolian Kurdish pieces that seem to be utilitarian,mostly simple flatweaves. and in your last post you said "you never wrote or opined that the rug is Kurdish and this was never discussed."
  
  First, you said the rug reminds you Kurdish and then you said you never said or opinied that the rug is Kurdish. Please Michael no Offence, we are just discussing rug in here. What were you trying to tell us by saying "On the back it reminds you more of a color you have seen occasionally in Eastern Anatolian Kurdish pieces that seem to be utilitarian,mostly simple flatweaves."
  
  And i had wrote no Eastern Anatolian rugs match to Detlev's rug. You decline to provide any Evidence, you must know this better than me. In Justice your idea doesn't make you that you are right, you need to have some evidence to support your idea otherwise it is not a fact but an idea has no evidence, if an idea has no back up to support the idea, i would call it a theory even more than that. Respectfully.
• Detlev Fischer: Dear Cevat & Michael, I agree with Steve that this doesn't lead any further. Useful and interesting might be parallel pieces (regardless of who posts them) - have any of you seen similar borders or the type of "totemic" tree with angular hooks? I have looked through my rug books but found nothing similar so far. Detlev
• Johanna Raynor: Hi Detlev, My Luri runner has a border like your piece.
• Lars Jurell: Hello all, Please, be patient for some days. One of our members will post a reply, incl. 3 images, in the end of this week. And it points to Central Anatolia (more details in his reply). But first we have to translate from Swedish (also the images!). Regards, Lars Jurell, Akrep Oriental Rug Society in Gothenburg, Sweden
• Sonny Berntsson: Hello Detlev, and all of you. Probably it is a rug from Karacadag. The rug you show on this thread, and discussed a lot, is most probably from the mountain-area Karacadag (The Blacklooking Mountain). Karacadag is not to be confused with the mountain Karadag north of Karaman.
  
  Karacadag is located 20 km north from Karapinar. On the southwest side of the mountain are the villages Salor (today named Yesilyurt) 20 kms away, then Ishiklar and Emirgazi 45 kms away on the north side. Higher up on the mountain there are six small villages.
  
  Your rug has a colour palette that was typical for Emirgazi area more than hundred years ago. At that time there lived Tukmen yöruks in the village at wintertime. During the summer they took their sheeps to the yayla on the highlands of Karacadag. Same were with people in the village Ishiklar. Their own rugs, yataks, divan rugs and yastiks had dark, deep colours, but very bright, in red-brown madder, apricot, green, oubergine, and often brown/black colour in the main border. But not so much blue. Their pattern are always strictly geometric and with hooks like meander-hooks as a frame around the centre. See images and links below together with this reply.
  
  When it comes to the lilac-brown colour I don't think you have to worry about it for being a synthetic dye. It was normal that the village people tried to make their own mix to get the rare deep lilac nuance as can be seen in a lot of Anatolian village-rugs before 1850, and even earlier, but became very rare after that time. We know they used madder as a base but the rest of the procedure, temperature, mordant, what alcalic minerals they used, is not known by sure. For example there is a big differens in nyance between first and second bath when they dye. Cevats suggestion that brown-red or brown-mixed wool were used seems correct. This is very common in yöruk rugs, both in Central and East Anatolia, where they have Morkoyun ( lilac sheep ). I have a fragment from Cappadocia ( circa 1850 ) with exactly the same nuance.
  
  At that time no light-resistance synthetic colours were brought to Anatolia, and your rug seems not faded compared to the back.
  
  The medallion-rugs and yöruk rugs, specific for this area and with the colour palette described above, have a strong tradition in all the long wide steppe-area along Toros Mountains from Karaman in the west and northeast up to Karacadag. Even the rugs from 16th – 17th century in Vakiflar Muséum in Istanbul, once woven with traditions from the Karamanoglari tribe, have their typical marks from Central Anatolia, and origins from this long area that often is named as Karapinar.
  
  
  Image 1: This type of prayer rug is the most traditional in Karacadag area. ( 1825 - 1850 )
  
  Image 2: Yatak with hooks in centre field
  
  Image 3: Divan rug. Detail with typical star-octogons and hooks.
  
  Image 4: Cuval front from Emirgazi ( circa 1875 ). Similar colours and pattern details as Detlevs rug.
  All these 4 textiles I guarantee origins from Karacadag area.
  Have a look at our Karapinar and Karaman rugs on our site: http://www.akrep.se/enindex.html
  Look on "Gallery, Rug this Month". And have a look at the map on http://www.turkish-media.com/y_h/bhtml/c_4_4.htm
  
  Regards, Sonny Berntsson, Member of Akrep Oriental Rug Society in Gothenburg, Sweden
• Detlev Fischer: Hello Sonny, that was a very interesting reply! I feel you made a very sound case (as far as I can tell from the evidence you present, especially the borders of the first rug, which are very similar to mine, and the meandering hooks in the second rug). BTW I have a morning in Gothenburg on 12 December until lunch, just in case someone from Akrep has time to meet...or in case you have any recommendations what I should not miss there! Many thanks, Detlev